Ever wonder why some marketers thrive in law firms while others crash and burn?
In this episode of Educated Spaghetti: Marketing Ideas That Stick, Lise Anne Schwartz and Roy Sexton, Chief Marketing Officer at Vedder Price, dish up ideas on building consensus for professional services marketing projects. They discuss the biggest mistakes of would-be consensus leaders, why Roy loves the word “pilot,” and his surprising take on creating lasting agreement. Plus, Roy shares his favorite resource and secret sauce for getting people to support a new project.
In this episode:
(00:00) The number one thing holding companies back
(05:05) Childhood experiences that shaped a consensus builder
(10:26) Pilot strategy that turns law firm skeptics into advocates
(17:41) When to proceed without consensus (and how to do it safely)
(23:54) Why trying to leave a legacy guarantees you won’t
(32:06) Roy’s secret sauce: listen more than you talk
About the Host
Lise Anne Schwartz is an experienced brand strategist and writer known for creating authentic, original work that audiences remember. With 20 years in professional services marketing, she brings a unique blend of perspectives as a former lawyer, journalist, copywriter, and pastry chef. Her strong focus on storytelling and user-driven communications, combined with skills in surfacing key insights from stakeholder and audience interviews, makes her exceptional at bringing complex ideas to life. Having conducted over 100 buyer interviews and earned degrees from Northwestern University and Columbia Law School, Lise Anne regularly writes on professional marketing topics.
About Right Hat
Right Hat is a marketing and design partner driven by curiosity, courage, and optimism to help clients take their communications to new heights. Specializing in communicating the value of complex, intangible offerings like professional services, education, and tech solutions, they serve as brand strategists, website designers, creators of sales tools, and extensions of in-house teams. Through deep industry knowledge and determination to push past the ordinary, Right Hat combines design, content, and digital strategies to bring powerful brands to life with fresh ideas that help clients stand out in crowded markets.
What do I REALLY want to be when I grow up? Many of us ask ourselves that question, not just when we are children but throughout our adult lives. Few people have the courage to embrace their truest, deepest dreams … let alone thrive in them. Successful voiceover artist, actor, coach, consultant, singer Ratana is one such human being. And her story is inspiring.
“Hi, I’m Ratana. In the Asian culture, the word Ratana has many meanings: it is a precious gem or term of respect in Hindi and a diamond or crystal in Thai. And, as the name implies, I am multi-faceted in my talents and interests. Here’s why: I grew up singing, loving musicals, theater, cartoons, and dance. And even though I loved to perform, I was also your stereotypically ‘good little Asian girl’ of a student – and ultimately I ended up studying marketing and advertising at Michigan State University, where I learned that creating amazing brands is very much like telling an amazing story,” she writes.
“After college, I jumped into the corporate world, where I applied my talents as a consultant to a variety of Fortune 500 clients, and later, as a marketing professional, where I worked on a variety of brands you might recognize from your regular Target or grocery run. But I still loved to perform. During the day, I perfected my analytical skills and by night, I took classes – dancing, acting, improv and voiceover… and I discovered that it’s fun to use both sides of your brain! Not only that, all these seemingly diverse and unrelated activities were perfectly complementary to each other. Serendipity.”
As a brand strategist with over 10 years of experience growing brands both in the US and internationally, Ratana helps clients develop and refine business strategy, find the brand story in their products or services, and develop a plan to bring that story to life. She has worked with and consulted for businesses in a variety of industries including entertainment, toys, food, restaurants, technology, and fitness, just to name a few.
“As a trained voice actor, I’ve lent my voice to a wide range of projects. Whether it’s providing instructions to children (or kids of all ages), playing a zombie’s best friend, or singing as a Southern belle, I’m able to provide a versatile range of characters, accents and attitudes that help you tell your story. As an improviser, my team and I entertain groups of all sizes by making up stories with only your one-word suggestion. And as a host, I’ve conducted live, on-camera conversations with artists and entrepreneurs,” she explains.
“It’s a problem when people are forced to seem or be positive in situations where it’s not natural or when there’s a problem that legitimately needs to be addressed that can’t be addressed if you don’t deal with the fact that there is distress or need,” University of Michigan Ann Arbor psychologist Dr. Stephanie Preston explains in a recent interview with Inc. “Toxic Positivity Will Make You Miserable: What Is It, and Are You Guilty of Spreading It?”
On this episode, Roy and Dr. Preston unpack the business lessons professionals might gain from her extensive work in cognition and cognitive neuroscience – how leaders can create healthy, high performing cultures that enhance retention through fulfillment and authentic engagement.
Dr. Preston is a professor of Psychology in the Cognition and Cognitive Neuroscience Area at the University of Michigan and is currently a co-ombuds for the faculty at Michigan. She has a master’s degree and a PhD in behavioral neuroscience from the University of California at Berkeley, where she studied how animals make decisions about storing their food. She was a postdoctoral fellow at the Department of Neurology at the University of Iowa College of Medicine, where she studied human empathy and altruism, financial decision making, and hoarding behavior. Dr. Preston’s research is highly interdisciplinary and uses a variety of methods to investigate how the brain and body evolved in social and caregiving species to make complex decisions through simpler mechanisms that humans share with other species. She specializes in studying how emotions impact decisions in the face of distress and need, in decisions about material goods, and in related applied issues in consumerism, critical thinking, altruistic donation, and sustainability.
“…We should avoid setting up a false choice that pits business development against community development; we need both. The private sector creates jobs that grow the tax base to fund improved services, just as amenities like transit and parks lead to more vibrant communities that attract and retain talent. …We need it all — but the best way to raise the revenue needed to pay for it all is through private sector growth — and that requires a long-term economic development strategy that incentivizes business to locate here and doesn’t change each legislative session.” Detroit Regional Partnership President & CEO Maureen Donohue Krauss observes in a recent opinion piece penned for Crain’s Detroit Business “Economic development shouldn’t be an ‘either-or’ proposition.”
On this episode, Roy and Maureen talk about her successful career in economic development, the lessons she’s learned along the way, the crucial work of developing one’s network and personal brand, and how to still have some fun along the way!
Maureen serves as the President and Chief Executive Officer of the Detroit Regional Partnership, a leading regional economic development nonprofit serving the Detroit 11-county region. Krauss is an accomplished economic development officer with a demonstrated history of leadership in economic development, nonprofit, and government and extensive experience guiding international companies to successful location decisions and growth in the United States.
“When we developed our rebrand at Clark Hill, internal and external input was key. We engaged in a robust process of surveys and focus groups of both clients and internal stakeholders. But even so, as we neared launch, it felt like something was still missing. We had heard from our clients that our culture was a key differentiator for them, so we leaned into our internal stakeholders within our incredible HR team.
“We realized that we needed to put our firm’s values and mission front and center. Some organizations view those as more internally facing, but we found that once we incorporated those elements into our brand narrative via video features, Q&As, media profiles, and other communications mechanisms, our brand became incredibly engaging (and award-winning!). Our brand videos had hundreds of thousands of views, and we saw the brand beautifully enhance the collaboration and connection across all of our offices and our professionals.”
I had a remarkable couple of days in our nation’s capital, visiting our Clark Hill Washington D.C. office and presenting at the National LGBTQ+ Bar Association’s LavenderLaw conference on client value and personal/professional branding. Caught up with some old friends and made some new ones. Grateful for this profession and industry and firm, celebrating our diversity, encouraging our voices, and honoring us all.
Thank you to my Clark Hill colleagues Maram Salaheldin, Mark Ludwikowski, Sally Alghazali, Kelsey Christensen, Kendall Smardzewski, Taylor Tremont, Jennifer Cook, and more for their hospitality and kindness, excellent conversation and commiseration.
Kudos to my dear friend Angelica Crisi of Coston Consulting for organizing such a remarkable panel, facilitating so beautifully, and treating us to an epic Italian dinner. She is a true gem. And not just because she titled our panel after one of my favorite Janet Jackson songs “What have you done for me lately?”
Catching up with my Wabash College Lambda Chi Alpha Fraternity brother Marc Nichols in person for the first time in 30+ years (I think?) will be a memory I will treasure a very, very long time. His panel on board governance was required viewing for anybody in this space. Exceptionally well done.
Running into the ever fabulous Lee Ashby Rogers on the career fair floor was an unexpected and delightful surprise. She means the world to me.
And lovely seeing former colleague Elizabeth C. Jeffries who is really lighting the world on fire not to mention meeting her original gay (OG!) “uncle”/mentor Michael R. Komo, Esq. Truly a delightful individual, and I’m sorry he and I didn’t get more time to chat.
Feeling so grateful. ✈️🌈💕
Kudos to these remarkable leaders on their continued journey – Legal Marketing Association – LMA International members please take a moment to review and ratify this slate here: President-Elect Rachel Shields Williams, Treasurer Elect Jessica Haarsgaard, Secretary Diana Lauritson, RLC Chair Morgan MacLeod, Member-at-Large Jessica Aries, and Member-at-Large Amber Bollman. Collectively, these humans have already had such an incredible and positive impact on our profession and industry, and I, for one, can’t wait to see where they take things next!
As immediate past international president of LMA, it has been one of my great honors to help shepherd the nominations process this year, and I want to give special thanks to our 2024 LMA International Nominating Committee for all of their hard work, dedication, insight, and heart: David Ackert, Terra Davis, Emily Schweitzer Hillman, Brenda Plowman, Kate Shipham, and Arthur Uratani. And kudos to LMA CEO Ashley Stenger and LMA Client Operations and Project Management Senior Coordinator Jennifer Weigand for their exceptional support throughout this process. You all should be so proud of the work you’ve done here.
And last but not least, thank you to EVERYONE who expressed interest in these roles and who took time (they likely didn’t have!) to complete the application and interview process. Your commitment and your contributions to LMA are appreciated greatly, and I am personally thankful for all you’ve done and continue to do.
“Playing comedy is hell. The necessity to have an audience love you is perhaps more overwhelming than in any other form of entertainment. With singing, dancing, acting you don’t know until it’s over if you’ve had acceptance or rejection. The comic knows sooner. The audience laughs or it doesn’t.” – Imogene Coca
One might describe marketing and business development similarly. In fact, there is one unicorn in this industry who is adept at BOTH: Brenda Pontiff. We are thrilled that Brenda is joining host Roy Sexton to talk about how business development and stand-up comedy are in fact two great tastes that taste great together!
Born and raised in Texas, Brenda Pontiff left for graduate school in Kansas and wound up touring the country with the Complex Improv Theater. She returned home and began working on her stand-up comedy skills at The Houston Comedy Workshop’s Comixh Annex, the infamous club that spawned the likes of Bill Hicks and Sam Kinison. A few years later, she moved to Los Angeles and became a New Face at the famed Hollywood Improv. She was also a regular at Igby’s and toured as a feature act for franchise clubs including Punchlines, FunnyBones, and Laff Stops. She took a 14-year break in the early 2000s to focus on her global business development career but has happily returned to bring her Texas meets California perspective to the stage. Brenda believes comedy is like the Mafia, you can never leave.
During said global business development career, Brenda founded Partner Track Academy after years of watching young accountants and lawyers, often part of a group challenged with inclusion barriers, panic over business development expectations related to making partner. So often firms’ marketing staff members are not trained to support non-partners’ revenue generation efforts or they simply do not have the bandwidth to do so. This missing component can be filled through individual, customized coaching or periodic workshops and presentations that provide tools, tips, and best practices that lead to improved networking habits, client satisfaction, revenue growth, and ultimately, a coveted seat at the partners’ table.
Brenda has:
· More than 25 years in accounting and law firm sales and marketing.
· Sold services on behalf of an AmLaw 100 firm, exceeding sales and new client acquisition goals for almost eight years.
· Worked as a professional speaker, stand-up comic, writer, and actress, winning several national awards.
· Created a new sales process for a Big Four accounting firm, taking revenues from zero to $3.7 MM in the first year.
· Led a Big Four sales support team during the demise of Arthur Andersen, winning 67% of the regional client base while competing against three other international accounting firms.
· Maintained a 100% success rate while working as a Big Four global strategist to retain critical, at-risk clients.
· Created a cross-selling client team that increased an AmLaw 200 firm’s revenue by $900,000 through one pitch meeting.
· Spoken frequently at association events and corporate retreats regarding account-centric methodologies, best practices for networking at conferences, diversity and inclusion change management, harnessing stress for better productivity, navigating the book of business demand, and embracing resiliency.
Thank you, Clark Hill and Corp! Magazine, for this recognition. It truly means the world. I do the best I can to focus on helpfulness and team-building and community and celebrating the authenticity in everyone, so a nod like this really puts the wind in my sails. I’m grateful I get to work for such an incredible organization as Clark Hill as well as support my professional community in the Legal Marketing Association. I’m truly a fortunate soul!
And thank you, Joel Epstein, Leslie Smithson, Jennifer Kluge, Alexis Yaeger (Jakowinicz), for your friendship and support on this. I appreciate you all very much!
Thank you to producer Anna Spektor for her loving support and to friend (and our next guest!) Brenda Pontiff for connecting me with the divine Tim Duffy, CMT!
What is that old joke? “How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, PRACTICE!” On this episode, we discuss a different kind of practice but one no less applicable to the business world: how meditation can enhance mindfulness and yield personal and professional success.
Guest Tim Duffy and host Roy Sexton unpack the career pivot Tim has taken to leverage his personal discoveries in this arena to help business leaders worldwide. Roy, being an avowed entertainment geek and fanboy, will no doubt ask Tim to talk about his career journey in Hollywood, what he learned from those experiences, and how his successful navigation of the entertainment industry now informs his coaching and consulting work.
Recently featured as a speaker at the iconic Netflix is a Joke Fest and the Hollywood and Mind Summit, Tim is a two-time Emmy-winner, an advanced meditation practitioner and a Mindfulness-based Executive Coach. His unique background in Behavioral Psychology paired with his wildly successful career as a Fortune 500 Executive and two-time startup Founder fuels his work with executives, performers and organizations.
Tim writes, “In 2010, I launched MTV Networks’ first Mindfulness Program and immediately became enamored with helping businesses harness the power of their greatest asset: people! During the next 13 years, I trained high-level executives throughout corporate America at companies like Amazon, Endeavor Agency, Netflix, AirBnB, and more, while implementing the same techniques and insights in my ‘other life.’ … In 2013, I launched my first startup, Ugly Brother Studios, which became widely known as one of the premier Food & Travel production companies in Entertainment. During this time, I created, sold, produced, and directed over 12 series, garnering nine Emmy Nominations, two life-changing wins, and four James Beard Award Nominations. … Through mindfulness and meditation, I’ve learned how to be truly alive to these people and to my own body and mind. Alive to the births of my children, the struggles of business, the joy of winning awards, the challenges of divorce, the loss of my father, the bliss of falling in love and, like us all, a freakin’ pandemic.”
Two of my Jiminy Cricket guardian angels – Liz Sobe and Laura Gassner Otting – just ran into each other at the train station! Hijinks ensued.
We live in interesting, sometimes exhilarating, often sad times. You might ask why am I sharing this image? There is a point here. And it’s not to garner sympathy. You might also ask why do I put myself through this? I’ve developed a pretty thick skin the last couple of years, and I’m quite proud of that honestly.
But I sometimes hear – and recently did – that we’ve come so far, and the world has changed, so how much visibility is really still needed? I would simply point your attention to these reactions to my Facebook post of this interview. Now I have a public profile, on purpose, and most of these are reactions from people I do not know. And I’m fine with that.
More than half of the 127 reactions have an angry or a laughing or a crying emoji, perhaps in some kind of judgment. These are exactly the people I want to reach. These are people who need to remember our common humanity. And the price of admission for me is that they get to believe they are mocking me from behind a cell phone screen or computer monitor.
They aren’t. They are merely shining a light on how much work we have yet to do.
P.S. File under bittersweet but optimistic joy … just wrapped my last in person meeting on the Legal Marketing Association – LMA International board. I still have six months ahead yet to serve, but in the spirit of fiscal responsibility and keeping resources directed to member value, we will have virtual meetings the rest of 2024.
The past two days have been incredible as President Kevin Iredell and CEO Ashley Stenger alongside incomparable Jonathan Lurie navigated us through robust and inspiring strategic planning conversations. The future is bright indeed with the marvelous, collaborative, forward thinking, kind group of talented humans on this board. It was lovely catching up, commiserating, thinking among friends old and new.
Excited to see where the road takes LMA and grateful I’ve gotten to be some small part of this journey the past five years. Onward and upward!
Oh my goodness, Idan Nishlis, Lee Saunders, Nishlis Legal Marketing, thank you for this lovely opportunity to tell a bit about my journey as a gay man in this industry. This absolutely made my day. Love you and grateful for your leadership and all you give our community. 🌈💕
“As part of Pride month we have been interviewing key figures in the legal industry for our series ‘Talking Pride with…’
“We are excited to share insights from Roy Sexton, Director of Marketing at Clark Hill and Past President of the Legal Marketing Association – LMA International (LMA). In this interview Roy discusses with Nishlis Legal Marketing the impact of identity on career choices, the importance of authenticity in the workplace, and Clark Hill’s commitment to Diversity, Equality, and Inclusion (DEI).
“‘I believe when we can be our authentic selves, we are free and comfortable to do our best work. I’m glad to see the world catching up to that idea.’
“Read more about how being true to oneself can lead to professional success and how law firms are evolving to embrace inclusivity.”
As part of Pride month we have been interviewing key figures in the legal industry for our series “Talking Pride with…”
We are excited to share insights from Roy Sexton, Director of Marketing at Clark Hill and Past President of the Legal Marketing Association (LMA). In this interview Roy discusses with Nishlis Legal Marketing the impact of identity on career choices, the importance of authenticity in the workplace, and Clark Hill’s commitment to Diversity, Equality, and Inclusion (DEI).
How – if at all – has your identity shaped or influenced your career choices?
Whether from being a member of the LGBTQ+ community or being an only child or some intersection of both, I’ve always been willing to take risks. This world imposes unnecessary limits on us based on identity, and when faced with that, I always feel some peculiar urge to prove everyone wrong. I had an executive coach once who laughingly said I seemed willing to put myself in harm’s way (career-wise) just to see what might happen. Lol.
I had spent the better part of a decade in healthcare and found myself getting bored with it, so I just threw my résumé out there and was hired by my first firm in 2011. The managing partner at the time was running for Congress and wanted someone to step in and pick up the marketing responsibilities he had so ably carried. I didn’t realize I was taking a risk making such a dramatic career pivot, but I’m incredibly glad that I did.
This has been such a rewarding industry to support, and being part of the Legal Marketing Association community and being embraced by it so fully gave me a sense of self and confidence that I don’t know that I had had previously.
What were your expectations of the law as a member of the LGBTQ+ community? Did you have any specific preconceptions, fears, or concerns and how has that turned out in reality?
Given what might be perceived as career recklessness on my part, I don’t know that I had any preconceived notions when I joined this industry in 2011. I mean, much like healthcare, I presumed there would be an element of keeping focus on the work first and foremost with identity/authenticity being secondary.
I’ve always felt differently about that presumption and have tried to flip it on its head wherever I worked. I believe when we can be our authentic selves, we are free and comfortable to do our best work. I’m glad to see the world catching up to that idea.
And honestly, I think I was refreshingly surprised by the firms where I’ve had the privilege to work. Yes, there has always been an element of keeping a professional polish on everything, but I have also found in law, a great joy in celebrating our own quirks and eccentricities and differences. I feel like that’s where the marketing magic really lies. And thereby one can execute some really fascinating storytelling to promote one’s chosen organization.
Much is made of Diversity, Equality and Inclusion (DEI) these days and its role in law, how active are you / your law firm in this area?
I’m really thrilled by our leadership in this arena. Our CEO John Hensien and leadership team more broadly have such a visible commitment in this space. We have dedicated resource groups to support everyone in the firm, attorneys and staff.
And we have made a concerted effort to weave DEI education into all of our external marketing messaging. The firm rolled out allyship training firm wide in the last couple of years, requiring all to attend. The conversations were robust and thoughtful and energizing. We have pursued and achieved Mansfield certification multiple years in a row, and our DEI videos and external content have received hundreds of thousands of views. The team I am privileged to lead has been involved in all of these efforts at various levels, in partnership with our fantastic HR team and other operational leaders. It is very gratifying.
And, of course, in my leadership role last year as president of the Legal Marketing Association, I put this issue front and center in all of my communications. And I may have brought a drag queen on stage in Florida at 8:30 in the morning just to make a point. 😊 I was honored to be recognized for these efforts by INvolve People as one of their top 100 LGBTQ executives worldwide last year.
This all sounds very self-aggrandizing to type, but the real point of it all at this stage of my life is to be the visible example I would have appreciated at earlier points in my career. If I can show people that being myself – my weird and happy and quirky self – yields success, while celebrating the joyous life I have with my husband and our rescue dogs, then I feel like I can make some small difference.
How do you feel law firms are generally today on this topic and what work remains to be done?
I think we have come a long way, and I encourage the industry to keep the courage of its convictions. I have been cautiously optimistic/pleased this Pride month (so far) as I feared firms might walk back visible messaging in light of the cultural pushback that we saw last year that caused some consumer facing companies to walk back their visible advocacy efforts.
It feels as though the industry has in fact, stayed the course, on the balance, and I would encourage those midsized and smaller firms that might still be on the fence about making visible declarations of inclusion to realize the world is evolving, clients are evolving, talent is evolving, and the future will be an inclusive one. Not an exclusive one.
Roy Sexton, Director of Marketing, Clark Hill and Past President of the Legal Marketing Association (LMA).
Founded in 1890, Clark Hill is an international law firm with 700 attorneys in over 25 offices in the U.S., Ireland and Mexico.
Thank you to Scott Lawrence and Gittings Global for this snazzy new headshot
